In this episode of Nourish by MN350, Sarah Riedl, Lisa Chou, and Aaron Dreyling explore the intersections of plant-rich diets and public schools. Hear from Kate Seybold, Regional Marketing Specialist with the MN Dept of Ag (and former Minneapolis Public Schools Farm to School Coordinator), and Jodi Gruhn, Wholesome Minnesota Coordinator with Compassionate Action for Animals, as they balance the struggles schools have faced through the pandemic alongside the solutions that sourcing locally and focusing on plant-rich menu items offer for a better future for our children.
See these resources to learn more:
In this episode of Nourish by MN350, Sarah Riedl, Lisa Chou, and Aaron Dreyling explore the intersections of plant-rich diets and public schools. Hear from Kate Seybold, Regional Marketing Specialist with the MN Dept of Ag (and former Minneapolis Public Schools Farm to School Coordinator), and Jodi Gruhn, Wholesome Minnesota Coordinator with Compassionate Action for Animals, as they balance the struggles schools have faced through the pandemic alongside the solutions that sourcing locally and focusing on plant-rich menu items offer for a better future for our children.
See these resources to learn more:
Kate Seybold 0:00
And you know, being able to see what, what a whole carrot looks like when you pull it out of the ground and it has the green paps, and you know a student who realized like that those tops are edible and they smell like the carrot and they taste like the carrot. There's just, it's such a rich educational opportunity. And those experiences I really do think that children will carry what they've learned through you know, Farm to School in the classroom, or the school garden or the cafeteria. They'll carry that with them into adulthood. And I think it really encourages this holistic, healthy, adventurous eating style.
Sarah Riedl 1:19
Hello, and welcome back to Nourish by MN350. I'm your host Sarah Riedl, Communications Manager for MN350 and MN350Action, where we're working to end the pollution damaging our climate, speed the transition to clean food and energy, and create a just and healthy future for everyone across Minnesota, the homeland of the Anishinabeg, Dakota, and Ho-Chunk people. Today I have with me Lisa to Lead Organizer of MN350’s Food Systems Team and Aaron Dreyling, MN350 volunteer, to talk about the role that schools play in building a more local plant rich and equitable food system in Minnesota.
Lisa Chou 1:59
Thanks, I'm happy to be here.
Aaron Dreyling 2:00
Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here as we dive into this special and super important topic today.
Lisa Chou 2:07
Yeah, I am also super excited for us to talk about my conversation with Kate Seybold and Jodi Gruhn. Kate is currently a Regional Marketing Specialist with the Minnesota Department of Agriculture, but also the former Minneapolis Public Schools Farm to School coordinator. Jodi Gruhn works with Compassion Action for Animals as the Wholesome Minnesota Coordinator, where she works with Minnesota institutions to provide culinary resources for plant based food options. They both work closely with schools across Minnesota and fill gaps in how schools can source for more local small farms and the kinds of menu options available to students.
Aaron Dreyling 2:45
I feel we're lucky to have access to these two wonderful examples of what it looks like to embody eco conscious values, which definitely shows in their work. These types of initiatives serves not only to improve nutrition of the foods they help to curate, but as well as sourcing foods locally helping to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in the process. Yeah, you know, I'm
Sarah Riedl 3:11
so glad that the two of you organized this conversation and brought up plant rich eating. Because as you know, on this podcast, we've talked a lot about the other areas that the Food Systems team is working on. regenerative agriculture was the subject that sort of planted the seed for this podcast. So we've explored regenerative agriculture with many of our guests. We've also done a few episodes about food waste, because globally 8% of human caused greenhouse gas emissions are coming from wasted food. And so that becomes a powerful lever in the fight to reduce emissions. We've also done several episodes on food policy. But plant rich diets are the fourth area that the food system team works on. And this is the first time we're going to dig into this subject here on the podcast. We know that food system transformation is required if we are going to meet the Paris climate targets. And when it comes to reducing emissions from the food system, adopting plant rich diets is an even more powerful lever than reducing reducing food waste. The challenge is that the food we put on our plates feels like a very personal choice. But we know that the climate crisis will not be solved by any individual actions alone. So while many people may be starting to make food choices based on the climate impacts of the food, the reality is that there are structural barriers to individuals who want to opt out of the industrial food system and its emissions heavy products, and that includes meat. And that is what today's guests are working on creating new structures that make climate conscious food the default.
Lisa Chou 4:49
That's a beautiful introduction. I just want to say and so my conversation with Kate and Jodi, begin by asking how each of their programs began. And the first time I had heard about the Farm to School program was through Minneapolis food Council homegrown food Council. And I know it had been going for a long time. And so I continued following it. And so the Farm to School Program helps partner local farms with school districts to access more nutrient dense foods in their programs, while simultaneously lessening the carbon emissions caused by shipping those foods as seen in traditional food programs. And like you say it's a great structural solution, because so often, there's a handful of key decision makers that decide the food that gets sourced to farms. So this is a great piece. And we'll listen to what Kate said.
Kate Seybold 5:39
Sure, yeah. So Farm to School has been going on for well over a decade across the country, and in states and communities in different in different ways and shapes. Here in Minnesota, we have many, many school districts that are doing Farm to School, and it's continuing to grow, which is really exciting. And as the state right now, with Minnesota Department of Agriculture and our partners and Minnesota Department of Education and extension, and many organizations, we're really working to build out a network of support to help more schools do Farm to School programming, and to help schools and farmers connect so that we can really build out this statewide structure for how students get to learn about and taste and experience local foods, so that they can carry that knowledge and those skills forward as they become future grocery shoppers, and cooks, and citizens.
Lisa Chou 6:36
And so I like what she said about how this has been going on for over a decade. So this isn't new. And I really like to highlight that our public schools are funded by local public dollars. And schools are huge places where our kids get fed. So as we use our public dollars to pay for food, but when we choose to source food from our extractive or global or industrial food system, we're actually draining our local dollars from our local economy in our community, towards farms and businesses that aren't local. So when we want to not only invest in our public schools, and the health and education of our children, but invest in our local agricultural communities, Farm to School programs really change that.
Aaron Dreyling 7:22
Yeah, absolutely. That's a fantastic example of how top-to-bottom systems change can be cepting stepping stones for more restorative, locally sourced food system that we need today. We need yesterday, but maybe we can get it tomorrow if we start getting our act together.
Lisa Chou 7:45
And then to jump to Jodi's introduction, wholesome Minnesota began a bit more recently than the Farm to School program. And with a much more down to earth origin story, as Jodi will share here.
(Long pause)
Jodi Gruhn 8:05
Wholesome Minnesota was actually started a few years back, but it was really volunteer driven. So there was a large group of us volunteers that got together and kind of focused on institutions where we thought we could make a change. So that might be someone's workplace, a school, their college. For me actually what it was was my children were young and starting to be in sports. And I noticed that the concession stands were demonstrable, I would say, with regards to their offerings for students who were athletes. If we're going to offer our children, you know, food to enhance their performance and do well in athletics, I don't understand I didn't understand why, you know, blue and red slushies and Gatorade and beef hot dogs were being served to kind of give them energy. So one of the things I did is just a volunteer at that time, as I took over a concession stand for just a little park and rec program or whatever, but just transferring, offering fruits free and water at a low cost and bumping up the cost of things like Gatorade, and things that were more processed. And I also made the hot dogs, veggie hot dogs, and no one noticed except for the vegetarians, and the plant based people who are grateful for an opportunity to have something to eat at those events. So for me, it was started as just a mom and seeing the need for some change in kind of the environment that I lived in. And then other people were kind of doing the separate work workstreams on their own. Just last year, Wholesome Minnesota got some funding to be able to have a staff person come on, and I was lucky enough to be approached as someone who would get that opportunity. So that was in the middle of COVID, and we talked kind of about what our strategy might be given the fact that so much was shut down. And one of the places we really recognized that really had the need and was still serving a lot of food was schools. So we really focused our efforts on schools. And the reason why that's so important to me is because this is such a win-win for everyone, not just students, but the overall sort of population, school food like this, they serve 7 billion meals a year that was pre COVID. And maybe it's a little smaller, no, but that's a giant amount. It's an enormous amount of food. And if we can impact, you know, we can impact the food system a lot by school foods. So it's a real win for students. It's the environment, you know, it's a win for the environment, student health and racial equity. So we can provide children with these, the access to these foods, that
Aaron Dreyling 10:45
That’s such an inspiring story, specifically how Jodi and her fellow volunteers were faced with the multifaceted challenges COVID brought to the table, and she saw the opportunity to have a strategic impact within schools and parks and recreations concessions. I mean, how genius, of course, for healthier foods for cheaper and bump up the cost of the unhealthy foods and see what people really want to pay. This is a whirlwind of a story and the impact of the big picture thinking we will definitely they will definitely stick with me.
Sarah Riedl 11:20
Yeah, talk about big picture, I mean, 7 billion meals a year, that's a lot of opportunity to have an impact beyond what any individual could do on their own, and a great illustration of why we need to be focusing on these structural changes.
Lisa Chou 11:36
Yeah, that's so true. I also love this origin story of Wholesome Minnesota and how Jodi found her role as a coordinator there just by how her kids were involved and she joined others to change what was going on around her but in a small scale. I also asked Kate, a similar question about whether some of the demand for the Farm to School programs at different school districts is coming from the community or coming from inspirations within the schools to adopt these programs?
Kate Seybold 12:06
Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think Farm to School programs, how they get started in school districts can really vary. You know, when I worked at Minneapolis public schools, our Farm to School Program was started within our culinary and wellness services department championed by the Food Service Director, Bertrand Weber and the staff there, the team that I was a part of really led farm to school in the district starting in our cafeterias. But then thinking about how we grew it from the cafeteria, then to school gardens and connecting with teachers. In other districts, it might start a different way. And it might start with a teacher and the school garden, and having that classroom connection. And then it may be tapping into the food service staff and bringing them into the mix to think about how they expand Farm to School to the cafeteria. We really think of Farm to School as the three C's, so classroom community and cafeteria. And I think there's examples across Minnesota and across the country of Farm to School starting in one of those fields and kind of growing out in some cases, it might be, you know, a shift coordinator or community partner who's working with a school district that can kind of help them get a foundation started for Farm to School. And then again, they're bringing on additional people in the district to support it. One strategy that we've really found to be successful, though, is that a district that has a Farm to School team with people coming at Farm to School from different ways is the most successful. So right now we're piloting a Harvest of the Month program across the state of 15 schools, and that that program will go statewide next year. But the each of the pilot schools has a Farm to School team that includes a food service professional, a teacher, a community partner, and to other people. And we found that system where you have someone coming from the classroom, the cafeteria, the community is really the most sustainable way. And it shares, you know, shares the work of getting Farm to School up and running.
Aaron Dreyling 14:04
I love this idea of Harvest of the Month that Kate just spoke on, as well as a concept that involves individuals from different demographics working together, and the structure of the program that fits their community's needs as a whole. Now, there's proof that it's possible and work still needs to happen. So it will exist for future students and community members for years to come.
Lisa Chou 14:34
So one of the next things I asked Jodi about something that was in the news in the last six months, I think, where Richfield public schools in Minnesota, pledged to have 20% of its lunch menu plant based by the end of 2024. And Jodi's organizing efforts through wholesome Minnesota helped to make it happen. So I asked her kind of how she made it happen, and what it was like to achieve that amazing pledge from an entire public school district.
Jodi Gruhn 15:04
Sure, um, so my program, you know, we're real small, and we're local here. And so one of my role is basically to build awareness for the forward food program. So I actually go and kind of make the the initial kind of calls and asks and try to connect with decision makers or parents or students to kind of get an invitation and and just share information. So I partner with larger organizations, larger national organizations like Forward Food, who have all of the resources, they've developed, the culinary plans and recipes. They have trainings for staff, they have marketing programs, they also have like greenhouse gas emission assessments, they have all this stuff to offer. And so I'm sort of being an evangelist for a lot of their programming. So what I did with Richfield was basically just kind of cold call the the Director of Culinary Services there, Nutrition Services, who ends up being a great great, great human being who was open and innovative and came from a university setting. So I think he maybe felt like he had maybe a little more flexibility, because I think university settings might have a little more flexibility than maybe some of the public schools had at the time. So he was just willing to kind of jump on board and try it. He also had noticed that students were really asking for culturally appropriate options in schools. Our school food program doesn't often reflect the student population. And for him, it was really important seeing that a lot of plant based foods actually do reflect cultural traditions. And it was super easy for him to implement those in his school. So we partnered, you know, he and I talked and got a good rapport and relationship. Forward, Food came in, and we all worked together and collaborated. And now he is offering plant based in Richfield public schools.
Sarah Riedl 17:00
You know, although we've talked we've kind of talked about schools is huge buyers, the food, the piece that distinguishes them from grocery stores or restaurants, is that they're also educating our children. You know, I have two kids, they're young, four, and six. And they're growing up in a world with a rapidly changing climate. So I try to teach them through like gardening together and dinnertime discussions about where our food came from, and whether or not it's what we've been calling a planet saving meal. But with what I know about our food system, and its connection to climate, I really think that an education about agriculture, and food and sustainability is as important as math and reading.
Aaron Dreyling 17:45
Yeah, absolutely. I love that, Sarah, what a thoughtful and powerful, intentional way to share meals together. I wish more families were so intentional and mindful with the nourishment habits. I too garden and feel that it's a good way to connect, not only with your food, but also with the earth and honor that the earth is what is nourishing you.
Lisa Chou 18:11
So I asked both Kate and Jodi, about how they see their work shaping how our children interact with food, either while they're still in school, or shaping children's lives after they leave school and what they think about after that.
Kate Seybold 18:25
You know, I think that I see Farm to School as a really unique opportunity to provide students with this foundational understanding of like, where their food comes from. And you know, being able to see what a what a whole carrot looks like when you pull it out of the ground. And it has the green tops. And, you know, a student can realize like that those tops are edible, and they smell like the carrot and they taste like the carrot. There's just, it's such a rich educational opportunity. And those experiences I really do think that children will carry what they've learned through you know, Farm to School in the classroom, or the school garden or the cafeteria. They'll carry that with them into adulthood. And I think it really encourages this holistic, healthy, adventurous eating style. You know, nothing, nothing happens overnight. It might take you know, a kid 17 times before they decide they like Farm to School beef or something. But I've seen you know, when I when I worked at Minneapolis public schools and I spent a lot of time in the lunchroom. It means there was nothing more fantastic than seeing a kindergartener crunch into a beauty heart radish for the first time. And, you know, maybe maybe they did like it right away but they tried it. And that was to me the most important part. And maybe they'll try it 17 times and besides that, they like it but just, you know, having that I'm willing to try this I want to learn about this food. I think it's so important as as we grow up into adulthood, I think as adults, we need to challenge ourselves to still have that same level of like adventuresomeness and an interest in our food and where it comes from. And so I just, I think Farm to School is really the foundational piece. And I think it also is really important for, you know, understanding why it's important to eat local food to support local and regional farmers, when you have that connection, you're so much more likely, you know, to shop locally, if you know that farmer where it's coming from, and to understand the values that that local food systems have. And we can start that at, you know, kindergarten or even in in early childhood settings to help raise those, those future adults that will be shopping someday.
Lisa Chou 20:45
Yeah, I agree with the the curiosity piece of being willing to try new things. It's amazing. I was lucky enough to have a CSA share for quite a bit of this last year, and like getting random things in there that you don't know what they are. But like, you have to try them and maybe even try them enough, you'll start to like it, but sometimes not at first. Our modern grocery stores offer such a small variety of like the amazing beautiful vegetables and produce and fruit that exist in the world. So it's amazing the Farm to School program can can expand what what ends up being served normally. Jodi, what do you think about that question?
Jodi Gruhn 21:20
Well, first, I love the way that Kate just expressed herself. And I just felt my heart just saying and she's like describing these beautiful foods, we’re food nerds here, I guess. I love it. For wholesome what I'm recognizing. So we just started kind of going into classrooms. This this year, as classrooms have opened up a little. And one of the things that I've recognized is I mean, recycling at home got its start because kids came home with the recycling message, and the adults had no opportunity to say no, because the kids were relentless about it. And I think that's what food system work needs to kind of be about. And it probably does need to start a lot younger. I've been working with high school students recently. And it's really interesting, because if I go into a warm audience, like green team, or an environmental club, those students are much more open to my message and are shocked actually, because they don't I mean, they're already environmentally conscious, but they had no idea, the impact of animal agriculture on our environment. So those are always like, those are the classes where I feel these big wins, when I go into classes with students who are just more conventional student that maybe isn't thinking about these issues as often as maybe these other children. So there's a lot more education that has to be done. So that's where we need to really, really focus a lot of effort and energy is with our youth and them understanding, you know, the important for the importance for our environment, but also just health, you know, even just talking about processed and ultra-processed foods, I think is really important, because that's what they're eating. You know, I mean, if you look at what Americans are eating, it's like 68%, processed food, 25% meat and dairy and like, you know, whatever's left 12% or something of plant foods. And that's just not enough. And that's why we're, you know, having all these health crisis that we're having. So I think kids haven't quite put that together yet. And I think it's our job as adults to bring this information to them and be realistic and true, and have them really, truly understand that their choices really, really, really do matter.
Lisa Chou 23:32
Yeah, I love all of what they talked about in this section from using early education as a foundation for building kids understanding of local food, to the joy and curiosity of trying new foods and learning to cook, to the impact that one plant rich meal a week can have towards a more sustainable and delicious future. And it makes me wonder for you, Sarah, how much this resonates with you as a parent with kids in the Minneapolis Public School District and someone trying to raise kids to understand our food system and also not be picky eaters.
Sarah Riedl 24:04
Absolutely, totally resonates. Like I said, my kids and I are kind of learning to garden together. And it's so funny. They're always willing to try a new vegetable. If it's picked straight off the plant. They don't even question it. I remember the first time I heard a three year old say, “mmhmmm, kale!” It was like how many three year olds like kale. But I think they sort of inherently appreciate it more when they have some understanding of how it grew and where it came from. Like, you know, when it doesn't just land on their plate without any context. It's harder to be a picky eater when your food has a story and you can see yourself as part of that story. My kids are still picky about some things, you know, cuz kids are gonna be kids. But I definitely agree with Jodi that the younger we start teaching kids about their part in our food story, the better.
Aaron Dreyling 24:55
Yes, Sarah. I wish I had that growing up as a kid. So much really resonated with me from Jodi and Kate are doing in the schools and the food systems that they are part of. I love to see that bridge happening between, you know, where the food comes from and, and what is actually going into our systems and being digested. And a lot of a lot of Americans are disconnected on where food comes from even, and how it's processed, and how we get it to our table. So the fact that they're focusing on teaching these young kids, you know, what this food is and what it means to eat, local, and it's just such a beautiful thing. I hope to see a lot more of it in the future.
Sarah Riedl 25:54
So Lisa, Jodi and Kate touched on some really deep values that drive their work, you know, sourcing local food, instilling food education in school curriculum, and then having equitable food sourcing to support it, and community members using their power to get involved in culinary programs. But I have to say that all of this is so different from what I remember about school lunch programs when I was in school, a long time ago. But, and obviously, during the past two years, schools and teachers have taken on a lot of other things that we're still learning how to deal with. And that, you know, quite frankly, they can see more prep, more pressing than, say, the carbon footprint of your sandwich. So did you talk about what it takes to make this kind of shift?
Lisa Chou 26:42
Yeah, absolutely. It despite these being great values, of course, there are lots of things that get in the way. Some of them is the challenges of network building, although some of these small local food networks might have existed decades ago. But rebuilding them is something that's really challenging, as well, as you know, like you said, educators and school, people who work in schools are really overwhelmed right now, because it's been so tough. So we'll get into all of these things coming up.
Jodi Gruhn 27:15
With students, I think one of the things that we may not understand right now is we might think that a classroom is similar to what it was like when we went to school. And I know we all vary in age here. But it's a lot different. And right now that teachers are struggling, the administration is struggling, the school nutrition professionals are struggling. You know, it's just, it's a hard time for everyone right now. And I think that yours aren't always open to new things right now. Because everyone's just trying to get by including the students, you know, they might not even they, they're not even thinking of this stuff right now. So I think as we get back into some sense of normalcy, maybe we'll be able to break some of the barriers. But I actually had a couple of quotes, like in terms of this whole like obstacles, which is, I think, really interesting because they show the difference in kind of directors approaches to this. So one nutrition director, so I did this did a talk with high school, and they had actually written to the nutrition director and the superintendent asking for them to consider offering more plant based options and what they what was returned to them was this. “As you note, the pandemic has significantly impacted our food service operations. For two years, staff time and attention have been devoted to providing meals among learning model shifts, staffing shortages, supply chain disruptions, and unpredictable product availability. We anticipate that it will be at least at least another year before we regain stability in food services.” And that's really the reality of what I'm bumping up against, and I think it's the reality for a lot of people in school nutrition. However, at the same time, our partner Michael Manning at Richfield said this, “when we start looking at recipes, you've you realize that the products you need aren't the things that we've seen strain in supply chains with everyone's ordering chicken nuggets, when we're ordering chickpeas and some black beans, they're much easier to get.” So it's whether it's when people shift their ideas of what school food can look like that I think that we can actually kind of get around some of the obstacles that are creating or have been created. When we just think in these conventional ways. I'm just encouraging people to kind of think about plant based as healthy options but also potentially more shelf stable and things that they can have in their back pocket at any moment in time that when a delivery truck doesn't show up or something, they have something that that they can serve the kids and they're not running out to Costco trying to get some chicken nuggets for for the school or something.
Aaron Dreyling 29:49
Jodi touches on how in spite of the supply chains disruptions because of COVID her school is still able to hold up demand from the plant-rich diet options. It's so great to know that, you know, thinking in your feet and being creative can help nourish but still help sustain in a pinch?
Lisa Chou 30:17
Yeah, definitely, and Kate described similar challenges within the former school program, including things like staff capacity being constrained, small budgets and Pandemic struggles. But she also shared about the solutions that an institution as large as the Minnesota Department of Agriculture, is doing to support schools who take the leap into transitioning their food to more local sources. And honestly, one of my favorite things about food systems solutions is that so often the solutions that are better for the climate and better for our community, make things easier. So when we talk about supply chain constraints, like beans, and chickpeas are our supply chain constraints on this, at least not yet. So switching to these things are both like a solution to this last year's problem and a solution to the decades long problem we've had with our food system. So let's hear from Kate next. Kate, can you share more about how farms apply to be part of the Farmer School program, what kind of ways and and versions the program has had to make it more equitable and improve over many versions?
Kate Seybold 31:28
You know, how, how different districts go about sourcing local food for a Farm to School program can really vary. So for instance, when I worked at Minneapolis Public Schools, Minneapolis puts out a request for proposal and for any farmers invited to submit a bid to sell product to the to the school district. In some smaller districts, it might be kind of more of an informal thing of, you know, reaching out to some farmers and saying like, hey, you know, what do you have available and, you know, kind of figuring out if it's a good fit. So it just kind of depends on the size of the districts and the area where they are. Some districts might work with a local food hub, to have that food hub source products for them that they then deliver to the schools. So it's kind of just a matter of the district size and where they are, and what kind of infrastructure supports there are. But I think, you know, my role and Minnesota Department of Agriculture is, you know, really focused on like, how do we help to bridge those connections between farms, and schools, because if you're a school food service director, you may be really used to, you know, working with big food companies and distributors, but you've maybe never worked directly with a farmer. And similarly, if you're a farmer was weren't used to selling at a farmers market or through CSAs, you're really not used to working with school food service professionals. And I think there's, there's learning to be had on both sides of kind of what a successful relationship looks like, between institutions and schools, our you know, Minnesota Department of Agriculture, Minnesota Department of Education extension, you know, all of our partners want to kind of help help bridge those, those, those connections and help institutions and farmers feel prepared to enter into those relationships. You know, some of the barriers to farm to school, you know, touching on something Jodie mentioned or mentioned earlier, is that school staff, teachers, including food service professionals have 1,000,001 things to do. And that's certainly been the case during COVID. And, you know, Farm to School, it is, it's, it's something that you need to put some time into working on. And I think sometimes it's challenging when a food service director is already doing all these things to take the time to do farm to school. But it you know, we're trying to kind of break down some of those concerns around time and you know, what resources can we as a state make that help it make it easier? And then certainly equipment and infrastructure is a challenge to you know, do schools have the equipment needed in their kitchens to be working with fresh produce and bringing in, you know, raw chicken or other things? And then as I mentioned, connection, so, you know, do you have the school food service director have a connection to a farm or someone to reach out to? Minnesota Department of Agriculture has a wholesale directory where schools can actually look up to see what farms in their area do wholesale. And we're actually going to be launching kind of a revamp of that site soon, we're working to make it even more accessible. And then also funding is a concern. You know, school districts operate on a really small budget. I'm sure Jodi can speak to that too. And as a food service director who's planning a menu, you have to be really frugal with your with your dollars. But, you know, I think there's a misconception that farm school has to be more expensive. And that's not always the case. But we also do want to support districts in you know, purchasing local, even if that maybe doesn't mean a difference in price. And so one of the great things that Minnesota Department of Agriculture has Farm to School reimbursement grant where schools can apply to get reimbursed a certain amount per meal for some of their local purchases for Minnesota farmers and producers. And so that's a, you know, just one way that we as a department are trying to break down some of those challenges and barriers to farm to school, so that more schools can participate and be successful in in buying local.
Lisa Chou 35:23
Yeah, you covered so many different things. Thanks for sharing that.
Kate Seybold 35:27
There's a lot to Farm to School.
Lisa Chou 35:30
Yeah, and especially as you've moved, moved up a level to see the overview of all.
Sarah Riedl 35:37
I'm curious about the overlaps between the work that they do, like whether schools with comprehensive Farm to School programs are more open to or like naturally transition to plant-based menu offerings, or whether schools switching to plant based options are curious about going one step beyond to sourcing locally.
Lisa Chou 35:59
Yeah, I wondered that too. And so I also asked Kate about thinking about if our preschool programs made that good segue to plant rich diets. And I think that's true when she talked about beets and radishes. And so we'll hear from her.
Aaron Dreyling 36:17
Yeah, that's a good point. I'm glad to hear that they have at least at a state level, recognize some of the barriers and have a reimbursement grant program in place for for schools that want to do Farm to School, for their for their schools, and don't see how they can offset the expense. But yeah, let's, let's see what Kate has to say.
Kate Seybold 36:46
Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I think it's really going to depend district by district. I know, when, you know, when I worked at Minneapolis Public Schools, there was interest in some plant based meals. And also just thinking about like, when we when we were buying protein was it coming from a farm that was using, you know, sustainable practices and good animal welfare practices, and then also balancing out with animal or with plant based protein. Other districts, you know, like, like Richfield with, with that Jodi's working with are really focused on the plant based, you know, for our Harvest of the Month program that I mentioned earlier, that we're that we're going to be launching statewide soon. We do have beans as one of those 12 food options. We also have poultry, you know, we want to represent all producers in the state. But we know that plant based is a growing interest among many districts. And so we're really excited to have beans in there as a plant based option for districts but we're learning that it's something that, you know, school districts haven't always done as much with with plant based menu options, right and, you know, cooking, you know, dried beans rather than canned and so we're trying to provide, you know, training and information on how to how to incorporate local beans and plant based proteins into Farm to School menus in connection with Harvest of the Month.
Aaron Dreyling 38:11
Our plant rich diet episode is part of mn 350’s podcast called Nourish. And nutrition is such a big topic of discussion when reducing or removing animal based foods from our diets. busting the myth that every meal needs a meat dish, which is reinforced by the menus and the food options, restaurants and establishments provide for their patrons.
Lisa Chou 38:39
Yeah, I think that's so true that people are afraid to give up meat because they think it's not going to be as nutritious. But Jodi's got a great explanation that she shares with schools when she advocates for switching to plant based.
Jodi Gruhn 38:55
Well, first of all, I just want to say I'm not a dietitian. But I just share a love and passion for plant based and I have found and I've read a ton, that plant based works great for many, many, many, many people, and you can get all your dietary needs met on a plant based diet. We in America believe we need so much protein. And that's always like the biggest question when you talk to someone who's plant based is, oh my gosh, where do you get your protein? And if you think about it, and you think about the largest, strongest animals on earth, they're all herbivores. They're elephants, rhinos, gorillas, etc. So clearly, we can get our protein needs, needs met through plants. So we have menu items that are available to schools that meet all of the dietary guidelines that schools need to meet for providing lunch to a student. They're all ready to go. It's a turnkey program where literally, you get menu items. You get menu support, you get marketing, support, like I mentioned, you get this greenhouse gas To set assessments so you can see where your menu was before. And after you've implemented the program, you also get to look at cost savings, because actually, there's this myth that plant based eating is more expensive than more of a conventional American diet, and that's just not true. It might be true, if you're eating a lot of ultra processed plant based foods, which is not what we encourage. We encourage a whole food plant based diet with the occasional, you know, like, I mean, a kid's gonna want to maybe have a hotdog or a burger or something. And those products do exist, everything that you can think of. That is like a meat product has now been, there's a plant based version of it, it is ultra processed, and it's more of a sometimes opportunity, I would guess I would say, but nothing that we're, we're definitely saying should should be something that people should eat every day. But yes, you can get all of your nutritional needs met with a plant based diet. We also are saying to you that this is a choice, and it's something that can be whatever choice you make matters. So if you said, and there's a lot of ways to approach it, too. So if you said, I would like to just try going plant based one meal a week or one day, a week or on the weekends, and there's all these different support systems and networks for the individual or for an institution to approach. You know, there was a whole Meatless Monday thing. New York public schools have a vegan Friday now that they have implemented There's just lots of different ways to approach this. And it doesn't have to be all or nothing. So we're just looking at kind of the reduction and looking at if what reductions you can make that can make a big difference Because just you know, one, you know, school districts doing one meal a week, can is mega, like mega change, potentially for carbon emissions.
Sarah Riedl 41:53
Jodi's last point there, that it doesn't have to be all or nothing is so important. You know, going back to a number that was mentioned earlier, 7 billion meals a year. So switching out one meal per week, in school culinary programs is still over a billion meals that could support small local farmers and be better for our climate.
Lisa Chou 42:17
Absolutely. And that's, that's why we invited them and we love the work they do. And some of the work that they do kind of inspired the new campaign our MN350. Plant-rich diets group is kicking off, which is called DefaultVeg. So I like what she said about having the option or having one day a week, and part of our DefaultVeg campaign is seeking to change the default food options to be vegetarian or vegan, while meat can still be an option, or an addition to any dish, but it's not included by default into everything like we currently have. And so the idea of our DefaultVeg campaign that really resonates with me is that people who might be eating meat every day, might accidentally eat a vegetarian meal, and realize how delicious it can be. And that they don't have to be putting in extra effort to try it, or necessarily have to pass on something. Because the vegetarian option will just be there. So having something like one day a week at a cafeteria that's plant-based, really does give students the opportunity to try something that they might not have been given all the time.
Aaron Dreyling 43:29
Yeah, absolutely. I love the fact that she says and pounds away at that point that it's a turnkey program. So you don't really have too much to say, like, how can you say no to a turnkey program, they're already done the word for you. All you got to do is just tell your board or your committee, you know, that this is an option and let's let's give it a try. Because I don't think anyone should argue at least for one one day a week. I mean, it's a no-brainer.
Lisa Chou 44:03
I love that. And that actually reminds me that so many cities, or maybe school districts right now are making climate action plans in order to make commitments on how to reduce their emissions, reduce their energy use, reduce all of these things, in order to meet the climate goals we've set as a state as a county as a city or school district. And so when you say, turnkey, it really is a win win. How can you say no to that, and it's something that you can implement that helps you meet goals that that are being set at different levels of institutions, or geographies. And to add on to the DefaultVeg framework, or Jodi's Wholesome Minnesota framework, is the idea about marketing and how we offer these new and slightly different food offerings. And so she wanted to add some parts about the way we offer it and call it really does change people's perceptions of it, and maybe how much they like it, so we'll hear from her next,
Jodi Gruhn 45:04
the one of the feedback, or some of the feedback that I got from Richfield was, he doesn't even mark it something is plant based, he just says, it's the ramen, you know, and then at the end, he gives them a choice of like an impossible. Meatball or tofu, and they can just take it, there's no questioning of where, where's the beef, or where's the chicken or whatever, it's just, they, you know, they sort of accept it, and then they love it, and they don't even think that they're missing anything. And that's the other thing. Like in terms of marketing terms, sometimes calling something vegetarian or vegan or plant based or something, makes people feel like they're missing out on something, you know, someone who is typically, you know, carnivore or, you know, like, eats a meat rich diet. But instead of just instead we like to call things you know, like, speak in terms that make some food sound exciting. And I'm sure Kate, you do that as well with Farm to School is, you know, it's the rainbow salad or the rainbow slaw, you know, making it sound exciting, not just say what it is, make it into like something that sounds beautiful, just like you were talking about the radishes early, I mean, some a way that you can, like visually see this food and understand that like, not only is it you know, going to taste good, but it sounds good. So I mean, that's that's key to all of this, too, is marketing to our students in a way that will appeal to them.
Kate Seybold 46:24
Yes, marketing is so important. You know, when we think about like, Okay, you're serving a kale salad to students, that maybe doesn't sound particularly exciting. But if you come up with a really cool, interesting name, like a guarantee, kids are going to want to try something that has, I don't know the word lava in it, or, or rainbow are like something cool. You bring up such a great point. It's definitely something we think about with Farm to School is like, how do we help schools do that marketing when, you know, school cafeterias are busy enough just trying to do all the cooking, but like, how can we help with marketing? And so that's one of the things that the Farm to School program will be doing, it's having these marketing materials and flashy colors and all that stuff to help get kids excited to want to try something.
Sarah Riedl 47:19
You know, Kate is so right. The key to marketing is to know your audience. One of my kids favorite meals is macaroni and cheese with chicken nuggets. But the way I make it, the nuggets aren't real chicken. And the cheese sauce for the pasta is actually cauliflower based. Sometimes the trick is to just not mention it at all.
Aaron Dreyling 47:43
Okay, yeah. So, you know, you're a magician now? I want to know your secrets. No, that's that's a great point, though, are you being creative and making it something new and flashy is probably the best term that she could have used. If you can bring something creative and exciting out of food, then it will keep their interests or pique their interest. And, you know, maybe though want to figure out how to make it themselves. You know, it's great, I love it.
Lisa Chou 48:18
So so far, we've covered a lot of challenges that are more behavioral, like the way people think about food, whether it's nutritionally or what it would take to change our menu offerings in schools. And so some of these are challenges at the individual or organizational level. But I really wanted to hear from Kate and Jodi about the barriers that they see existing and affecting schools at the regional, state or federal level.
Kate Seybold 48:47
You know, I think one thing for pharmacy school is the school districts that participate in federal school meal programs have to follow federal purchasing guidelines on on how they source their food. And the guidelines are certainly set up to allow schools to purchase local, but I think that sometimes they it can come across as a perceived barrier or school districts don't quite know how to interpret it or, you know, understand what language they need to use in, you know, request for proposals or solicitations that they put out. And so I think just breaking down some of those barriers to help schools feel empowered and confident in how they're sourcing local is really important. Similarly, I think, just as an example, you know, yes, you can buy the from a local farmer, but, you know, what's the process for doing for doing that in terms of working with a local butcher or something? And similarly for vegetables, right, like, what are the requirements in terms of the farm having, you know, GAP certification or what are the food safety requirements? You know, food safety is a really big concern for a school district of course when they buying food. And when they're working with local farms, they want to make sure they're doing it right. But you know, there are great ways to do that in a way that can guarantee your food will be safe. And so it's just, I think it's kind of breaking down some of those perceived barriers and and helping schools understand what they need to know and asked for and document.
Jodi Gruhn 50:22
I think the USDA Foods program, you know, it's it was created to stabilize the American farm economy by purchasing surplus commodities to offer schools, public schools, at a low cost. So we're seeing menus that rely on carbon intensive ultra-processed foods, like deli meats, deli meats and chicken nuggets that are that come from, like the largest industrial meat and dairy corporations, and those are not going to be your, you know, the Farm to School types. That's factory farming. And that is what our government supports generally. And that is obviously not aligned with kind of the plant-rich diet, or what we're what we're evangelizing here. So that's a big one. And, you know, they it's created in a way that though that food is so cheap, that, you know, as a school nutrition professional, you have such a limited budget, and you have so few resources that you kind of need, I mean, it's my understanding is you need that food often to be able to meet your budget. So everyone that's in school food is well-intentioned, and they, they they're doing this job because they care about food, and they care about our children. But often their hands are just tied because of budgetary constraints, we're asking them to do a really impossible job with so little, little little money. So you know, there's a there's been a new policy that I was just talking to some students with last week, because it involves Billie Eilish, she's a spokesperson for this proposed legislation called the Healthy Future Kids and Earth Act, and they seek to divert, I'm reading something here, so it's gonna sound a little robotic. They seek to divert funding to plant based foods and beverages for kids. And it's it would be a volunteer grant program for districts to provide healthier climate friendly and culturally appropriate plant based entree options to students. So it's just taking some of those commodity dollars and treated them putting them into some grants. So schools can have the option and the choice to offer some of this and not have to feel a financial constraint or making a choice that they're going to do something different. And that bill is is up right now. But that's like one policy that is an obstacle, but some solution that is being tracked right now.
Sarah Riedl 52:48
Just want to reiterate here, the bill that Jodi is talking about is HR 4108, the Healthy Future Students and Earth Pilot Program Act of 2021. Kind of a mouthful. It was introduced by Representative Dallas, because and Representative Bowman, both of whom are from New York, and if passed, this bill would create a voluntary grant program for school districts to help schools provide plant based entree options to students. And we can put a link in our episode description for listeners who want to learn more about that bill.
Lisa Chou 53:22
Yeah, definitely. And I had just heard about that bill, I think through social media, before I talked with Jodi, and Kate. And it's a bill like that, at the federal level is seems like such an easy when in a common sense solution, because it's creating small pilot programs, that schools who really want to do this can take advantage of to see how well it works and maybe overcomes kind of some of the early hurdles to make it easier for more schools to adopt, or just try it out if they're interested in being a little more experimental. So I think it's amazing that there's already traction at the federal level for more grants and programs like that. And of course, the the National Farm to School Network, helps facilitate lots of other grants for schools across the country to adopt these things. And also, even in Minnesota, I think there have been bills in the past and maybe ongoing bills to provide more grant funding for the state that probably helps schools, cut the edge off from some of the funding barriers or capacity barriers. So that was really cool that you brought that one up at the federal level.
Sarah Riedl 54:36
Okay, we're getting towards the end here. We've come to the portion of our show where we ask our guests, how can we help what can our listeners do to support your work? So let's hear from Kate and Jodi.
Kate Seybold 54:51
Yeah, I mean, I think again, you know, Farm to School is happening at each district on their own, but I think it's a great place for interest to community member or parent to reach out is to reach out to your school district, your food service director, someone else. See your Farm to School is going on. See if you have school garden? And do they need help getting it planted for the year? Or, you know, a donation of tools or something like that? Or do they do taste test in the lunchroom? With Farm to School foods? And do they need volunteers ever just find out if there's a way that you can help? And then I think you know, aggress another great way to help Farm to School kind of tangentially is, you know, for all of us as individuals to support Minnesota farmers, right, support our local and regional farms, shop at a farmers market by local and, you know, the more that all of we support all of us support our food system that will also help Farm to School programs.
Lisa Chou 55:50
Yeah. And what is a good way for people to stay up to date with the program? Would you recommend - is there a state level newsletter or I know one, I've subscribed to the Whole Carrot for in Minneapolis, this progress there, but which one would you most recommend?
Kate Seybold 56:06
Yeah, so a lot of districts. You mentioned Minneapolis is the Whole Carrot newsletter, you can follow a lot of districts, individual newsletters to see what Farm to School is looking like you know, in their districts. There's also a Minnesota Farm to School newsletter that you can subscribe to. If you if you just go online and search for like Farm to School, Minnesota, it'll take you to the University of Minnesota Extensions page, you can subscribe for to the Minnesota Farm to School newsletter. And that is, you know, kind of a collection of information and updates about Farm to School happening across the state.
Jodi Gruhn 56:43
Well, I think the one thing is if you're a parent or you are interested in schools and our kids nutrition, I know I'm starting to do this is volunteering in your school lunch room. Right now, they are so understaffed that they are actually employing students over the lunch hour, they're paying them for an hour of work to serve food to their fellow students. And it may be just 20 minutes, but they are so understaffed, and they really, really need our help. So I would say like that's just supporting your school community. And if you have the time and the means to be able to do that, I would really recommend and then you can actually see kind of the ongoings and what is happening actually, in your local school, what kind of food is being served and where you might be able to kind of fit into the network. In terms of helping me in my program, if you're curious about plant based at all, and don't really know where to start, I would suggest checking out the website, ExploreVeg, that is the Compassionate Action for Animals website. And that kind of will give you a some in depth kind of understanding of some of the things that are going on in town, in terms of community building volunteer efforts, events that are going on. And that's an organization really, where they kind of meet people where they're at. So you do not have to be plant based to go to one of their events or anything like that, it's just to give you the opportunity to explore. And then in terms of Wholesome Minnesota, I would really love help and support in reaching out to administration and school nutrition professionals and let them know that you're interested in having a plant based menu option in your school. Most schools don't have one, they just don't. And the the nutrition professionals that I've talked to when they talk about the vegetarian options, they almost kind of like laugh at it, because it's like, the cheese thing that's covered in cheese and with more cheese and how we're just creating these vegetarian options that are really not healthy either, because it's so full of saturated fat. So really just getting the word out and just asking for those options. They people can contact me at Jodi.Gruhn@ExploreVeg.org. And I can get them set up with the name of the person in their school district or of whatever district they might want to chat with. I can give resources, you know, whatever. I'm also I'm very happy to come out and do presentations for PTO groups, groups of parents, Green Teams, schools, whatever I'm very, very happy to share this message. It's what I evangelize, and what I'm really, really passionate about.
Lisa Chou 59:23
So thank you too, so much for joining today's recording session and sharing about your work. And thank you for all the work you do to improve our food system.
(Jodi/Kate’s sign-offs, thank yous)
Sarah Riedl 59:35
So just to reiterate, those two websites, Kate mentioned, extension@umn.edu and then search for Farm to School. And Jodi mentioned, ExploreVeg.org, and we'll include those links in our episode description. Aaron and Lisa, how else can our listeners get involved?
Aaron Dreyling 59:55
Thank you, sir. I will echo what Kate said and support local farmers and producers at your local farmers markets and volunteer locally at your local community gardens or in your school garden. A lot of schools have gardens now.
Lisa Chou 1:00:14
That's a great list already. But one thing that really inspired this episode is that our Plant Rich Diets group has kicked off our DefaultVeg campaign. So if you love the work that Jodi does, and you are related somehow to maybe a university, a department, K-12 school, or even a workplace that serves food, as our DefaultVeg campaign is for you. So we would love to connect with you, learn about what institution you're connected to, and then help change the food norms wherever you are. So we've got a pledge link, if you want to learn more, if you're super excited to take action, and shift the food norms, wherever you are. And we'll include the pledge link in the show notes, as well as we've been promoting this pledge link across MN350s social media. So if you follow us, I'm sure you'll see it there, too.
Sarah Riedl 1:01:15
All right. That's our show for today. Lisa and Erin, thank you so much for sharing this conversation with us.
Aaron Dreyling 1:01:23
Thank you, Sarah, for having me. Thank you, Lisa.
Lisa Chou 1:01:27
Thanks. I was so excited to cover this topic. And I love our discussion and what Kate and Jodi shared and of course the work that they do.
Sarah Riedl 1:01:36
And thank you, especially to Kate Seybold, and Jodi Gruhn for sitting down and doing this interview, and sharing some of the exciting work they're doing around schools, local sourcing, and plant rich diets. For everybody listening. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you again in a couple of weeks
Nourished by MN350 is a production of MN350’s Food Systems team. We are changing the way people think about food production, distribution and consumption practices in the context of rapid climate change. This series is made possible by the hard work and passion of a group of dedicated volunteers.
Our producer for this episode is Lisa Chou.
This episode was written by Lisa Chou, Pat Peshman, Aaron Dreyling, and Kimberly Colgan, and our audio editor is Dan Jaquette.
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